For the Love of the Map
Are you looking for an out-of-headset dose of all things Supernatural: Unreal Fitness? Look no further! This is the place to discuss the latest scoop on new choreography, in-depth workout reviews, and all the happenings in the community. Whether you're a seasoned pro or just starting, the show covers everything you need to stay up-to-date and continue to find joy in movement!
For the Love of the Map
Dancing Through the Cosmos: STARWAVE with Robin Orr & Job Stauffer EP|34
Pioneers of the VR universe, Robin and Job, join us to explore the vibrant world of virtual reality Level design and the unique communities it creates.
Listen in as we celebrate the camaraderie that emerged during the isolating days of COVID-19, where VR became a lifeline for building connections. From forming clubs to hosting virtual brunches, we highlight the heartwarming stories of friendship and support within the Supernatural community.
Venture into the cosmic realms of STARWAVE, a groundbreaking VR experience that blends rhythm games with self-expression. We discuss the journey from its conceptual beginnings to a dynamic collaboration with Meta, resulting in a fresh take on interactive VR adventures. Experience the thrill of choreographing your own movements in a hyper sensory universe, where each player's unique interpretation adds a personal touch to the cosmic dance. Tune in as we explore the innovative designs, diverse soundtracks, and community-building elements that distinguish STARWAVE, and imagine a future where VR continues to break barriers and foster genuine human connections.
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The first post I ever saw in the community was a side-by-side of the two of you together in your in your lab that all of us envy, because you have such a rad space to supernatural to do all VR things in.
Robin:It highlights, like our intention behind our level design, because you talk about how you get to. You get to decide the choreography, you get to decide how you're going to hit it and move and whether you're going to build in a lower body workout.
Job:Your movement and your expression becomes more ecstatic and it's finding your own flow. So you're no longer told up down, left and right, you're told try to hit that point, then that point, and then you can do this 10 times over again, and it can always be different and it's you expressing yourself.
MJ:I have to open myself up to be more creative, and I love that it's such a different challenge.
Job:Side of Supernatural. It was a virtual room and big screen with a campfire and a screen playing pop music or electronic music.
MJ:Wouldn't have been pop music, because she would not have danced with you, correct?
Job:It was electronic. I think it was Alesso maybe.
MJ:Hello and welcome back to the For the Love of the Map podcast where we talk all things supernatural choreography and the joy in movement. I am your host, mj, and I'm so excited for our guests today. We have Robin and we have Job, and they are two old school like original members of the supernatural community, ogs.
Robin:OGs Y'all are the OGs.
Job:Not in age though, but you've been a part of the community for so long. We have super the natural once or twice once or twice, maybe a couple times.
MJ:You know, you just happen to be like one of the first people to get a million points in Supernatural. You know just a little bit.
Job:Yeah, yeah, maybe Her mom was the first person. Well, we'll get into that later, that's really cool.
MJ:Let's just drop that off right now.
Job:Let's drop it off right now. Yeah, her mom was the first person who didn't like work on it before it was out, so kind of like my points didn't really count because I was like ahead of what was possible. My points didn't really count because I was like ahead of what was possible, but the real person to get, I think, I believe I believe the first active user from Consumer Launch to spin up over a million points was Robin's mom, holly Ward, who is an absolute Terminator, awesome, robo, badass. And hi, holly, that's it.
Robin:That is so cool. We call her the sarah connor not not.
Job:Yeah, she's. She's sorry, that's right.
MJ:Yes, she's the sarah connor og supernatural days isn't it your mom who got you into supernatural robin?
Robin:yes, yeah, um, she was the one that that was like like, yeah, you should try this. I've been doing this every day. I really like it. I think you would like it too. And I was like okay, I'll give her a try. She's like yeah, there's a. I don't remember. At that point, I think it was like maybe a month long free trial.
Robin:Um and I was like like, yeah, I'll give it a month and then I'll probably unsubscribe. But I gave it a month and then I most definitely subscribed and just kept going because it was. It was exactly what I needed. Um, it was 2020 2020.
Robin:Umrooms had shut down live instruction mid-May or mid-March, during spring break, and so I was at home, not a lot to do. Getting used to the whole like being in front of a computer screen all day versus being in a classroom all day and I did struggle with it at first. Just because it was so much screen time. It was like, you know, eight hours in front of my computer with my kids and then let's go do an hour of working out in my headset and I struggled with that. But then I got used to it, Built up my stamina.
MJ:Then you're over there knocking out, you know, 500k. I saw that post in the community. In fact, when I joined it was August 2021. And the both of you a post. One of the first posts I ever saw in the community was a side-by-side of the two of you together in your lab that all of us envy because you have such a rad space to Supernatural to do all VR things in. Now you guys work in there and what a cool place to be and have.
Job:It's mostly covered with green screen now. It's evolving.
Robin:It is.
Job:It's changed a lot in the last 30 days.
Robin:It's changed a lot since you moved here. I mean before it was just boxes of classroom stuff.
Job:It was an episode of Hoarders that needed to be. Hey, now it was an episode of this is a classroom elementary school teacher, so she has a simple amount of stuff in her garage for an elementary school teacher, completely reasonable, completely normal, and now it's completely abnormal. So now it's weird.
MJ:Yes, yeah, I was going to say he moves in and then all of a sudden your garage is this it's like a rave daily in there and the lights and theater things on the wall where you can see all the gameplay. Oh man, it's really cool though.
Job:We have fun. It's it's basically Peewee's Playhouse. Peewee Herman Paul Rubens is a big influence of ours and someone that we knew and always loved, and just that idea of being like a grownup kid and being able to have toys everywhere and things to play with. It's it wasn't consciously done, but like moving into our adult life and just stopping for a minute and looking at around. I guess we kind of do live in Peewee's playhouse. There's just toys everywhere, stuff to play with.
Job:And, by the way, he was the OG VR dance guru and if you haven't watched Pee-Wee's Playhouse in a long time, you really should watch it. It's really good. But you can see episodes where he would put on his magic glasses and he'd be transported off into like a hula land and he'd be dancing around the playhouse dancing in VR before anyone could even conceive it. And we actually we have like a portrait picture of Paul Rubens wearing his magic glasses. Robbins made some magic glasses like like you know, like toy ones, and it's so he's a. Yeah, that was the germ of that fantasy that I think like, maybe subconsciously, everyone doing this maybe saw once but doesn't realize it's kind of kind of something he dreamed up and now it's real.
MJ:So I'm having flashbacks now, like I. It just hit me. You're absolutely right that he is the start of that. Wow, so Robin got into supernatural back when COVID hit. Is that how it happened for you too, joe?
Job:For me no.
Robin:I was going to say I got into Supernatural during COVID, but I didn't get into VR at that time. I did get into VR earlier than that.
Job:She's way older school VR.
MJ:What was the first game you remember playing in VR? Robin.
Robin:Oh my gosh, this was back in the old school, like Google Cardboard days of roller coaster games that I would explore. But then, like originally, originally I had the Oculus Rift plugged into my computer with little sensors pointing around the room to track me and Beat Saber, of course, and custom maps and beat saber were my favorite um and yeah synth right back when it very, very first first came out and was in this. Very, a very different experience like right now you're.
Job:You know you spawn on top of a, a rooftop in a city, but it didn't used to be that way, right yeah, I, I think I think a lot of supernatural users especially like, have come in during the quest era and don't realize that we had always been tied to all these umbilical cords, to all these computers and forced to sit down and we couldn't get up like vr. And it's not just like the last 10, 15 years. Like you know, vr's actually got like a 40 plus year history of all kinds of wild stuff and laboratories at mit, but like it was until quest launched in 2019. Like that was like vr was finally born because the umbilical cord was finally cut between six degrees of freedom and movement and you know, uh and not, which is a huge, huge, huge difference. So like it was kind of really only born in 2019. Um to what it is now.
MJ:Yeah, quest one quest really made the industry, the whole vr experience completely different.
Job:Yeah, it was always like that. Holy grail was how can you get people up and moving where they're not tethered to wires? They don't need to have all these computers, it's just something that you buy, it's a gadget, put it on, play with it and portals to different worlds anywhere. No computer necessary, no cables, and that was. That was kind of the dream. I guess I'll parlay that to my path into VR, which was I.
Job:I had always I worked in flat video game lands, so I have been developing video games and working for video and companies for like 20 plus years and done flat games like Grand Theft Auto or Minecraft or Game of Thrones all these like wild blockbuster games in two dimensions and around 2016, all of the developers of VR like that were, you know, founding Oculus and trying to make VR games were coming to our studio.
Job:I worked at a studio called Telltale Games and everyone wanted really consumable small video games that you could kind of play in 15 minutes and talk about the water cooler. The next day, um, they came to us looking for you know, hey, do you want to make something? Um, I was super interested. I kind of did r&d for it and I kind of got sidetracked in like this seated stuff, once six degrees of freedom opened up and we could move around a room, and one thing led to another and I started finding, early like 2016 era, projects that were getting people motivated to music, particularly this one piece of software called soundboxing that had you moving and building your own beat maps to YouTube videos. So they didn't even license music. It was just something that was initially started as a Reddit browser and turned into a 3D punch dancer.
Robin:That's kind of smart.
MJ:Yeah, yeah.
Job:It was just way, way ahead of its time, right, and it being the first time you could get up and punch and move and dance around without being seated in VR. I discovered early on that it's a good place to sweat and fall into a flow state and I, kind of by happenstance, also then became one of the first humans to lose 50 to 100 pounds sweating it out in VR, which just kind of skyrocketed my whole trajectory out of these two-dimensional video game companies and that focus into oh I want to do this Like this is going to be a huge thing. It's going to change the world, change games, all that stuff. It was super apparent to me then in 2016, 17. So that kind of put me into VR startup land and producing different games, like Audio Trip I've played that, I worked on that All kinds of different stuff, vr gyms, et cetera, et cetera, all the way to loop back around to 2020, helping to launch Supernatural.
Job:This has been a big passion of mine. But as a game developer, we talk to a lot of people that get to that point where, like, you've been working in flat gaming, but once you see that, oh wow, like we're in it now and this stuff can change people's lives and we have that capability. That's just what it's been for me ever since. So that's kind of in the smallest nutshell how I came back into Supernatural and then kind of converged with Robin in 2020.
MJ:Yeah, you two met in the Supernatural community in one of the many clubs is what I like to call it like external communities off of the supernatural community. You are the one who started the a hundred K club, the 500 K club, the 1 million. You even did the crazy thing of the a hundred K in a week club. Um, and these are lots of points.
Job:It's not something we encourage people to do, but if you do it on your own if you train for it.
MJ:I this, I talk about training all the time on this podcast. You can do anything your heart, your mind wants to if you train for it, Absolutely, you prepare for it.
Robin:I ran marathons. It's the same thing. That training run of 24, 25, 26 miles is always the worst because it's like I'm going to go do this now again for realsies.
MJ:Yes, take care of yourself. Do all the things that you're supposed to do, shoot. If anyone who's listening wants to do 100K week, reach out. I will give you some tips. There's even a club for people who want to do 100K, who want to know how to do it. You know the best way to go about it, so it's possible. I know you don't encourage it and you have to say that, probably for liability reasons I mean, I'm not liable for anything you do in the supernatural, but I.
Job:You are irresponsible, you're responsible, play responsibly, prep responsibly and if you do happen to get over 100 000 points in a week, salute to you. Join the supernatural centurion club. That's right. Well, other people, it's kind of crazy, as you. So, yes, there's a club for that.
MJ:There is a club for that. So you guys, when you started the a hundred K club, I know that you were doing brunches on Sunday as a great way for people to meet other people. I've attended a couple of them. I wish I was back then. I wish I had found Supernatural earlier for my own.
Robin:And.
MJ:I know we all have our own journey, but you guys met there from Robin's mom, right.
Job:True story. Yes, so I like I said, like I helped, I helped launch supernatural early 2020, but by end of 2020 I had wound down and was, you know, kind of carving my path towards your health care, which I ended up doing for a while, but in that in between, I'd already started the community like war and like a part of supernatural. But by the time I was on my own, like, well, these are still all my friends and what's. It's kind of really lonely here, like in the middle of covid, and I think everyone else is feeling the same way and, like you know, it was a really, really dark time. You know, I don't have to explain that to anyone that wasn't. You know, everyone was there, we all knew.
Job:So. The lack of human connection, the lack of even being able to go and sit down with someone at a restaurant or meet your friends, like everything shifted to this digital space. And you know, for my sake, like I, I'm the kind of weirdo that would get in VR for hours and hours and hours on end and sweat the, you know, sweat out all of their emotions and try to work it out, and I've been doing that for 16, 17, 18, 19, five years without anyone really like in the world necessarily identifying with that. And then all of a sudden I had this treasure trove of people I could suddenly identify with, like, oh, you would put on a vr headset and do this for hours on end. You would do this and you're like, oh, wow, it's not just me, right? So, um, being able to to kind of help form a community around that.
Job:But also one of the reasons I did 100k was, you know, um, just kind of noticing that, like when people would start Supernatural, it kind of took a while until they really got their bearings, kind of understood how to get in the flow, make it part of a healthy habit. You can't get to 100K in like a night. You can do it in a week, once you've been doing a couple months and if you're daring enough. But it was kind of the idea where it's like okay, there's a lot of people here on this page that might be new and might fall off in three days and it's not for them. How do you get people together that are like, okay, I hit a point where I'm committed and someone you know how can I talk to people that are more into this for sure? So, like a little bit of a past, past the tutorial sort of kind of club, and that kind of led to you know the first five people that showed up, where I think Rick showed up. These are just names to people that are listening.
Robin:Like.
Job:Oh yeah, dave and Mike and yeah, like, but, um, holly or showed up to the first brunch. We just, I just did brunch. It's like cool. Well, all these people are in here. I'd like to talk to these people. Would anyone want to show up to a zoom call on a Sunday and just do brunch and do coffee? And sure enough, yeah, um, holly showed up. Two or three other people showed up and you know, I just remember Holly saying is like oh yeah, my daughter's getting really into this too. Like you guys should, should meet. Like you guys would probably, uh, have a lot in common with vr, that this is like what you guys are doing. So I'm like, yeah, oh yeah, robin, she's on the thing. And then I think we got into a bunch of other clubs and some contests together. Is that right, robin?
MJ:yeah, after the snce probably those tournaments yes, yes, the like community events.
Job:And you were, I was, was I? No, you were the coach.
MJ:You were dope you were, and she got put on your team. Is that what happened? Listen, I'm over here. I'm pretty sure that's what happened.
Robin:It was they were doing this beforehand, and so I was like like you know, that sounds kind of fun. What else do I have to do because you know can't go anywhere? Uh and I signed up for a club and it's like, oh hey, rick, what, what team am I on? And found out. So I joined and uh, yeah, it's history.
Job:Yeah, you two glad you start hanging out working out together in the headset this is true, yeah, so I um anyway, yeah, she came to the next brunch and we just so, yes, we live together now.
Job:But I will just say this is that, um, if anyone meets anyone like and ever clicks to this degree, like it just, this was the kind of thing where, like, you meet your best friend first and you realize that you're like, you're really good friends and you want to hang out and do the same kind of stuff.
Job:And you know, I was just looking for someone that wanted to go explore vr. I'm like, hey, does anyone have free time to go do some r&d on some of these quest apps and go see what this is like and see what multiplayer is like in this thing or see what fishing is like? And because all we have is time on our hands and we can't leave the house right, so, um, let's utilize that. And robin was game and the next thing we know we're flying off into claymation world and standing together in front of mirrors as chili peppers and hot dogs, and it just was like a space trip for months of hanging out in vr and then also, you know, simul playing supernatural a lot and everyone else, realizing that it had evolved into something more than it does except us that's true.
MJ:That's great, everyone else is telling you guys so are you guys going to be together soon, or what's happening?
Job:I mean, yeah, so that happened and that was just you know. But that was also. It wasn't just the brunches, it was something that I was really fond of just before COVID and like going through a really hard time in my life and like 2019 into 2020 and losing family and just like totally needing like movement and a healing space. I got really into ecstatic dance, which is if anyone watching or anyone you know kind of knows about it, google it and you'll find that it's kind of a methodology of human community and expression, of getting together to dance in really a safe space and a safe container where there's no drugs, no alcohol, no talking, no touching, very like defined conscious boundaries. For you to come into a space, let loose whatever emotions, feel your body, move and not worry about cameras that's the other thing. No photography, it's all just a safe container to meet other humans, to kind of have this communal space that is like primal and ancient to us as beings is to get around a fire and dance and doing that for a couple years. All of a sudden, covid gone. But we have supernatural, we have embodied movement in vr um, the group that um I would do ecstatic dance with in the bay area. Would. They shifted to zoom. So when they shifted to zoom, it was people at home dancing in front of Zoom cameras, but they couldn't like dance with each other.
Job:But us, being VR people, we're like, wait a minute. We actually kind of can be in the same space and move together. Ecstatic dance times in big screen, where we would put the ecstatic dance screen zoom call up on a giant imax screen while we were avatars in space, dancing together but also dancing with 250 other people on a zoom call back down on earth. So we'd be like feeling like our consciousness was up here together and physically around each other. So we were. We were literally dancing with each other together in space for months, until we had ever danced together in this space. So, um, that was part of our cosmic connection for sure. Um, I can see that. And then we made a VR dance space game, but that's a whole other thing you did.
MJ:So you guys meet, hang out, become best friends have no idea that how many years later, four, four years later- it's about four years.
Job:We met in 2020. It's now the end of 24.
MJ:That you guys would come together and create an awesome new VR. I don't want to call it a game. It's an experience that's what I call it when I explain it to others. I happen to have the honor of being one of the original date beta testers for star wave and um man, I freaking love it, you guys. It is such a great experience. It is not supernatural. Y'all aren't trying to be, supernatural, but for supernatural users.
MJ:If you like supernatural but want a little bit more freedom, a little bit more, say in the way you want to move. Check out Starwaves.
Robin:Seriously, I'm so excited to talk to you guys about.
MJ:Starwaves Seriously. I love everything you guys did for Supernatural and the community and I'm sure we'll get back to that area, but I want to hear about Starwave. So you guys are together now, living here, living your life. I know you continue to be in the VR space working, joe, and this opportunity happens in your life.
Job:Yeah, I mean I after Supernatural. Yeah, I went into like VR healthcare and was helping to build systems for, like stroke patients, people that need rehab, and learning how to like literally lift a spoon to their mouth and eat breakfast again or drive a car again. Like physical rehab for even quadriplegics. It was like wild opportunity to do the most awesome fine-tuned science, medical rehab, purpose-driven stuff in the world. And just before I had taken that gig um, you know, I was just going up to um meet robin for the first time and everything was about to change. But there was a hint of this project, uh, from some really passionate friends of mine that saw everything that we've been doing and getting into vr, you know, lighting it up on camera and building communities and building these projects. And a good friend, sam, calls me up. So, hey, I haven't this idea for this project and like you'd be, really we'd love to have you like help with this thing. And I'm like I just took this hospital gig. But what is it? And he shows me this dream idea for effectively dancing in space. I'm like, hmm, this is pretty familiar. I've been thinking about this quite a bit and you know some like loose dreams, concept stuff, not entirely figured out yet, but enough to kind of pitch it around and talk to meta, and meta was really excited and they helped get it off the ground and so I gave him some pointers. I said let's keep talking about it and cut to um, I think a year and a half, two years later or something like that, like Robin and I were looking at like stars drifting on YouTube out into the infinite, I'm like I wonder how that project's going along, call them up. And it turns out it was perfect timing, because they had just kind of hit a wall and they could really use some help and I had just freed up. So Robin and I uh took it for a test spin, an early, early build, and we just completely were like there's so much we could do with this and we love what this is now and this kind of.
Job:We could see that this was the kind of thing that we wanted to help design into and that's the role that we took on was to help lead design on this project that is now called Starwave and effectively what we wanted out of it was, as people that did Supernatural a, almost like if you're going to supernatural as like training and you have coaches and you're kind of doing this stuff and learning how to move your body.
Job:What are you training for? And that's kind of like was a little bit of our mentality, was like what if you were training for this space odyssey, how could we push people in a way where we want to unlock um, that sort of like subconscious idea that all all that you're doing in vr and flow in a beat saver or a supernatural has to be directed and we love it when it is. It's gotten us through a lot. We still do it a lot, but we wanted to turn off that sort of guiding hand that's entirely visible with every move and just give you cue points where it's coming from you and your movement and your expression becomes more ecstatic and it's finding your own flow. So you're no longer told up down, left and right, you're told try to hit that point, then that point, and then you can do this 10 times over again and it can always be different and it's you expressing yourself, to add on to that, to build on that actually, so that the idea of Supernatural and other apps being training opportunities to build up to something.
Robin:I have seen some comments lately that you know, starwave is just another rhythm game. It's just another like rhythm game. It's just another like oh, it's just another beat saber, it's just another blah, blah, blah, like. No, I was just going through my internal catalog of, like, all the different rhythm games that I've played. And supernatural, you're popping balloons, synth riders, you're gliding through the spheres. Um ragnarok, you're smashing things, you're smashing the drums, right. Star wave is unique in that you're taking all of that, that skill and that that training that you have been working on with all of these other games, and you're now getting to see it manifest itself physically, because when you hit a supernova there, there is impact and it is launched out into space where you can see it explode and erupt with that energy that you have launched into it. So it's, from what I can recall, it is one of the only ones that has that sort of physics response, which is your action.
Job:Yeah, driving that impact and that inertia forward so that, like that endorphin rush, that sort of like serotonin hit that like oh my god, spark. You know, sometimes you get to the end of a supernatural workout you have the awesome sparkles and the butterflies. Yeah, we kind of wanted to go totally wild and make everything like sparkles and butterflies. So like every split second it's just flashes of rainbow light, ultimate sort of energy going off into space, fireworks. It is a hypersensory experience and, frankly, if anyone is sensitive to you know flashing lights or is subject to any epileptic seizures, this is not for you. But if you've ever played something like Synth Riders or Beat Saber and you've enjoyed it, it's really not. I wouldn't say it's of. Yeah, it's as safe as those.
MJ:Yeah, exactly, I would agree with that. It does take a minute to get used to everything that you're seeing and experiencing in front of you, but it doesn't take long. You're seeing and experiencing in front of you, but it doesn't take long. I promise you one or two, two voyages, and you are good to go. You just adjust to it. And one, one thing I find fascinating. I have to tell you my first experience in Starwave. I was blown away when it finally occurred to me that I was the master of my movement.
MJ:No one was telling me how to move to, to hit these up, to come back down, to go straight out. I could. I was in control of that. When that hit me, I mean I I remember freaking out, realizing I'm the choreographer, I'm the director, I'm the one who's doing this, and all of this training I have been doing in Supernatural.
MJ:I have to sort of break myself when I go into Starwave and I have to break my habits in the sense that I have to open myself up to be more creative, and I love that. It's such a different challenge, such a different challenge and it is like a static dancing. That is what that experience is like.
Job:Yeah, it's everything you just said. Thank you, because those are those things that are like very obscure and abstract. To kind of tell a lot of folks that maybe don't do this a lot, to understand the nuance of being directed than undirected being a huge difference, um, and you know it's, it's a very different paradigm of brain, entirely off, just follow the directions to now your spirit and like, your creative spark and your energy inside is coming out and it's, it's. It can be, just as it is, an ecstatic dance. You know it's, it can be really healing. You know, um, to really tap into emotions that you need to get out, uh, by the way, that you're moving is kind of really the secret sauce to all that and um one other part about it.
Job:That's been the community slowly sort of starting to realize. Robin just did an awesome tutorial video yesterday, now that we have these green screens on um, a song she did called archetype, where it's like a lot of low notes where you can get down and like it's a lot of squats, it's a lot of lower body movements. But you can see in that video that are you know, if you're playing beat saber or supernatural or synth, you're standing in a center square um or a circle, and you're either spinning that spot or you're staying in, facing forward and if you step out of line, those things are still going to keep coming down that bowling alley, right. So you kind of got to stay in one spot.
Job:But for us, this new kind of paradigm for this whole genre that people are just kind of realizing wait a minute, if I go this way, all the flow comes this way. If I go this way, it comes this way. If I get down, it's all gonna get down. So you become the center of gravity and star wave. So we're constantly throwing all the interactables at you to allow you to open up and freestyle. So if you need that space for movement, you can take it but at the same time, if you can't move, if you don't have space, maybe you're confined to a chair or even a wheelchair. We have a lot of people in our community that play from wheelchair. It's that flow, automatically adjusting to them, to their height, so it's able to be flexible, to you know, be accommodating and accessible, but then adaptable to people that want to take it a step further and bounce around their house. It's that's kind of where we've opened up things for movement more.
MJ:I agree it's very dynamic. Like you said, everything follows you and how you want to move, and that's the. I mean, it's just so freeing. It is so freeing to have that. And Robin's video. I watched it late last night and I was thinking, look how far she's going down. Like those squats are hurting my legs, legs are shaking, watching her and I'm thinking, okay, I need to try this, I need to try this.
Robin:I kept laughing toward the second part of that video because I knew I was going to get down into a squat and I was going to show how it gravitates down and I'm like I'm not gonna be able to get out of this, I'm gonna get stuck. I'm gonna get stuck because it's gonna gravitate down and then I'm gonna have to try to get back up.
Robin:But, like the thing about that song is those notes have those high notes that are up higher and so, like you, can, you know, start to move that flow back up as you go. But yeah, that's.
Job:I was giggling because I knew that that was coming that's fun I've watched that video about six million times in the last 48 hours. We just did it what two nights ago and I edited it and just pretty much the best editing task you could ever get is to edit your partner's space dance video in and you know green screen like, oh I have, I'll do this all day. I'm probably gonna do more all week. I'm like robin, let's go let's go he's got a plan for you.
MJ:You've got lots of videos to make, robin.
Job:I think we're gonna. I think we're gonna try to do Robin will take people through the levels that she led on and I might do the same, so you'll start to see more of us. It's weird because for all the years that we did and have done and you've done, you know videos of yourself doing Supernatural at home. It's like here's me in my living room and here you can kind of maybe listen to coaches. But now we've suddenly found ourselves in this situation where wait a minute, we should probably be talking people through these. So all of a sudden we're starting to see ourselves talk doing VR and I'm like, oh right, like we can talk now. So we have things to say. You do, yeah, so that's, that's the voiceovers.
Job:There's no coaching in Starwave. We don't want to to tap into that. That's really not what we're going for. This is more like a a a, a sound mind, calm yourself and find your own way, kind of thing. But having been recording some of these songs and kind of talking through it, I think we're excited to do more of them. So, you'll see more up in our Facebook community.
Robin:It highlights our intention behind our level design, because you talk about how you get to decide the choreography. You get to decide how you're going to hit it and move and whether you're going to build in a lower body workout or what have you. But like the level design, we've been working on some new tracks and it's been so interesting to see like we're laying the notes and then playing it.
Robin:I'm playing it one way and Joe's playing it another way and he's like I kind of like it because I have to move a different way. And I'm playing it one way and Job's playing it another way and he's like I kind of like it because I have to move a different way. And I'm like, yeah, you're moving a completely different way than I am the way that I mapped that, but like that's cool because we want that versatility, we want to be able to have these notes in these positions that can be really hit from any way. I tend to build in some more that allow you to kind of like, if you're gonna hit up, then you can keep that arm up theoretically and then bring it down at another point. But like you know, or crisscross, or crisscross, yep yeah, it's um.
Job:We always. You know listening to um. You know for love of the map and so many of the awesome mappers and people involved with not just supernatural, but you know for love of the map and so many of the awesome mappers and people involved with not just Supernatural, but you know synth writers and Beat Saber. Mapping is hard and you know A you don't want to put someone in a situation where they're going to get hurt, but you want it to be fun and you want it to be awesome, but it also mapping is mostly focused on the plot points. We have the unusual task where we don't necessarily refer to ourselves as mappers so much as we do level designers, because we're, or choreographers, because A we want you to be the choreographer, we want to tee you up and the moves are yours, but we're also designing.
Job:You know planets Also designing. You know planets and as things go by you where they're going to be, what rings are on them, what rock fields are going to be in that certain point in space, and you know figuring out ideas for the constellations that are going to pop up. And you might even see these little spreckles of color, of stardust we call them starbursts coming at you Like we go in there and you know work in our tool sets and Unreal and we hand paint those, we hand pop those in every time on the timeline. So it's mapping and level design and you know the sort of big layer of creating a journey through space, because you're not standing in one spot with sort of just one piece of really impressive and amazing, you know earth photography.
Robin:We're putting you on an odyssey, um, so it's, it's, it's a, it's a ride, you know it's, it is, it's a whole experience yeah, we want to emphasize every layer of the music, so, like the asteroids are intentionally placed in parts where it's like, oh yeah, this is an asteroid part. The planets are often bumping to usually a distinct beat, but it can be different than the beats that you're hitting with the supernovas. So, like, playing to that element and the starburst can sometimes follow the vocals or they'll follow a bass line, or what have you the vocals, or they'll follow a baseline or what have you.
Job:but, like all of the elements within that experience, are are building off different layers from within the song and ultimately like the the word that I think maybe a lot of users have heard or it's synesthesia, yes.
Job:So, uh, you know our one of our co-creators, james uh milke. He worked with a studio in Japan, q Entertainment, who's kind of famous for first tapping into synesthesia with games like Rez or Child of Eden or Luminous, these old sort of flat, beautiful, you know, gorgeous, spacey, light, flashy experiences. It's all about that marriage of your senses. So what you see is what you feel, what you feel is what you hear, any sense that we can possibly tie it together into one. With VR we were able to really tie in that sense of embodied movement. So everything you're doing, we want it to be married here. So if it's a high note, notes are up here, lows are down here, this sound will always be this color, and then just taking that user through that journey where we're really flushing and tapping into their entire sensory system to turn it into kind of a symphony that they're directing.
MJ:I love this and I really hope that a video you guys will consider making, now that you have your green screens and voiceovers, is like a whole process of leveling, creating a level from start to finish, and just your thought process, like why you decide to add this here or that there to set us up for moving the way we want to move, like you were saying, you know, when Job went and played something that you had made and he was moving completely different than usual. These little things, these little pieces of behind the scenes, why you guys do these things, that's what we're fascinated with. You know, I'm fascinated. I want to know why, like what made you decide to put this asteroid here? You know, like, why do you have the stardust over here at this moment and not at this moment? And then, once you say that, I feel like I have more of a personal connection to the songs as well and to the whole experience, and then I can go in and either choose to interact with it, thinking of you or going.
MJ:I hear you, but I feel this. Let me tell you. And then you get to go. Oh, wow, I never thought about that. It's just this whole learning experience that would be really cool to see.
Job:Yeah, I think you're going to be in luck, because there was Robin being, you know, a teacher and an educator. We've only just recently kind of married those two on green screen where it's like, wait, robin, you're really good at teaching what's going on, and she did one yesterday. That was kind of just what you're asking. We'll get that up soon where it kind of explains why you see this planet and go through these wormholes, because it's this idea that you're yeah, so you're taking a journey. Then you're all the way back where you started and we have some stuff cooking like that. So it's good to hear. So we'll tap into that a little bit more.
MJ:Yes, yes, please. So do you guys get talk to me? Do you guys get talk to me?
Job:Do you guys get a song first and then that's how you go from there. It varies, I would say. So we are blessed and this is for anyone that you know watches us and makes content. You know, supernatural has this amazing partnership with, I believe, like Universal Music Group and more, and that's great. We've kind of taken a different route where you're likely not going to hear any songs you've ever heard before, but they're not bad songs.
Job:These are like the best bangers we've ever found in our life and it's from this label called Epidemic Records, epidemic Sound, who is really tapping into a lot of like Nordic and Scandinavian and Euro and really global, all over not confined to their LA all over Africa Artists that are producing new sounds that are kind of like underground and on the cusp of being heard everywhere and they help any user or content creators. And they help any user or content creator. So if you have a Twitch stream or a YouTube channel, they have a copyright-free sort of subscription you can have. So I think it's just a couple bucks and then, if you have a YouTube channel, you can use anything in their 50,000-plus catalog and monetize it. So we look through their catalog, we partner with them, so we have all this music to tap into, so for a good year plus, we're sifting through 50 000 songs wow trying to find the best music we could possibly make.
Job:What star wave is? Um, and that's kind of a. You know there's. If you listen to electronic, this is a very, I'll say, if you play supernatural and you're into base meditation, or what's the drop, if you're into the drops and the basement. Basically, if you're Leanne, you would probably like Starway A hundred percent. It's actually. I don't know if she's playing. I should send her a code, we should send her code.
MJ:we should send her, definitely send her, reach her and we got you covered, I'll send you code.
Job:So there's um, it's, it's very, it's all. It's electronic music based. So, um, and then in defining what that sound is, we kind of looked at sub genres of of electronic music, like chill wave or Synthwave or DataWave, and, thinking about what we were making, we kind of thought what is Starwave as a musical genre? And it's these big sounds, this big epic, sweeping variety of electronic music that can really uplift you and keep you moving fast but just feels like you're on a journey through space. So that felt like this kind of sub sub genre of music that could also define what our game is.
Job:So it's star wave genre of music and you know, you'll hear we would sift through stuff from artists like Nightcap and Starlight and all these artists, like last year, and we would just drive around in our car or going to the gym or going on a hike and just listen to these tracks and be like, okay, we've whittled it down to a hundred. Now we got to whittle it down to 36 and it's going to be these ones. So it was a long time before we actually got to go in and make them. So we had heard, so we'd heard these a million times and we had like played them through in our heads and what the moves might be, until we got to sit down and like go. So now that those are done, we're kind of like looking at the next wall and building our next wall to kind of create so it's, it's also a lot of thought that goes into like how do we group them?
Robin:because you know, each galaxy, then, is kind of its own sub-genre of that. So, like the fourth galaxy, the pink one is really more of the pop with shine and like still got time. Oh, I'm trying to reconnect.
MJ:My internet is being, you're fine it works if it, if it happens, it will continue. On our end, we'll just sit here and smile for a minute.
Robin:We got you we got you, we got you, but just saying that, each galaxy kind of has its own vibe to it. So we have more of the poppy tracks in one galaxy. We have more of the heavy poppy tracks in one galaxy. We have more of the like the heavy DDR type tracks in one galaxy the, the, the darker like tracks with like those deeper bass notes and like more spooky kind of undertones, like in one galaxy. So there's a lot of uh thought that goes into like how do we group them? And that also came up with the DLC work that we're working on. What do we present that's unique, that we haven't yet presented?
Job:Yeah, we're just always trying to expand it, keep it all sort of gelling under the same umbrella, but also continually give a new flavor and a new feel to every song. Every song has its own sound, so every level should have its own feel to how you're moving or cued up to move. I mean that's kind of hat in hand with this whole genre, but it's that's. We really do approach it like that. It's. It's not really cut pace, it's everything that we're. Every level is its own kind of unique kind of work of collaborative art.
MJ:So For sure, Each galaxy, each level has its own vibe, sound, the, the environment, the space is different everywhere, different planets, different colors. I have a couple of personal favorite songs in there. Oh, do you? I do Feel so Alive. Is I feel so alive when?
MJ:I play that one like, oh, I was dreaming about it last night, it was midnight. I realized it was so late, I hadn't moved, I was editing things, I was lost, right. I was in the zone here and I realized, oh my gosh, I haven't gotten up, or stood for hours and I had that song stuck in my head and I went and played it, then went and played supernatural for a little while, then went back to star wave for the while. I mean, but feel so alive is my go-to like when I need to feel alive, when I need to let out that uh.
Job:I just don't feel right, you know. Oh, everything you're saying is yes, and when I talked about those songs we listened to a million times like a year ahead, that was always the top of my list, was that song? I felt like that and maybe set me free those two songs, yeah, felt like they were almost star anthems, for what the experience of star wave was going to be about was freedom and expression and being uplifted and feeling the life in yourself. So feel, so alive, was I think one of the first songs I did. Um and a bit was that would be yeah, that's a galaxy one song, I think one of the first songs I did.
Job:That's good in Galaxy 1.
Robin:Yeah that would be.
Job:Yeah, that's a Galaxy 1 song. I think it's in the demo as well.
MJ:It is in the demo. It's great.
Job:And if you haven't tried and if you haven't seen on the store page anyone watching. You can do a 20-minute free trial of Starwave. You just download it. You don't have to pay. It's not for you, it's not for you, but you can find out if it's for you for 20 minutes. Give it a try. I have another song and I think that this one I could be wrong is created by Robin and it's Shine. It's like, oh yeah, a fan favorite.
MJ:The whole community, everyone loves Shine. It's just feels so good. Community, everyone loves shine. It's just feels so good. You should, you know it's all the things you need to be told in this one song and you're moving through it and you really feel it, you really shine. Um, that one's one of my favorite, for sure. Yeah.
Robin:I didn't like it at first. I didn't like it at first. I love this. I love hearing this. All right, tell us you're like. I have like an allergic reaction to pop oh, got it feel that.
Robin:I had. So out into space was actually one of my tracks from that galaxy and I struggled so much with out into space until I was like I'm gonna lay tracks to the lyrics and we're gonna see how that goes. And then I was like, oh, this is way more fun. Okay, I, I'm into it. And, um, I didn't like shine at first, because it was originally laid out like Out Into Space was where it was a little slower, it wasn't to the lyrics, it was repetitive, and it just didn't catch me.
Robin:It didn't hold my attention, and so I went back into Shine and played with it some more, like I did, without into space, and realize that, oh no, we've got, we've got a banger here. This is, this is good, this is powerful, this is inspiring, this is we're going to, we're going to lean into these parts of this song to really like drive it home, and it turned into one of my favorites.
MJ:So I love that you were able to flip it around Um, didn't want to do it, didn't like it, oh, and then you found a fun, a good way for you that worked for you to uh interact with it and create such an awesome, awesome experience. I love shine. Really good job on that one. Yeah, we were. I love shine Really good job on that one. Yeah, we were all like yeah. So one of the other things that I absolutely love about star wave, when I think is really really cool, not only do you have like a weekly leaderboard of you can see all your friends, you can see everyone who plays Starwave. That to me, as someone who's sort of motivated by competition, I really like seeing everyone. And then my friends, you guys have like a lifetime leaderboard too. Yes, which?
MJ:is so different than a lot of other games.
Job:It is very different and we actually launched with just that. The weekly leaderboards just came in like two or three weeks ago and it's, on the one hand, if you're like, let's say, robin's mom or Besmondo hi. Besmondo, who's like top of our boards every week? Who's a maniac over in the UK? You know you're racking up. You know our, our scale is different from supernatural, so you get to a million in like a day yeah. It's great.
MJ:It's space points. That's what I call it Exponential.
Job:You know so, like that's one thing supernatural doesn't have. It's space points, that's what I call them. It's exponential, exactly you know so, like that's one thing Supernatural doesn't have. But that's also maybe a blessing, because sometimes if you're new and then you see this board where it's like, oh, I have a million points, but these people have 5,500 million, yeah for sure, you could never catch up. So it's more like that's kind of hidden for the really hardcore users that kind of want to see like who's really going for this, and it's more of a more honoring people who've been there since earlier on.
Robin:Yes.
Job:But really where it's at is the weekly leaderboard. So that's that's where everyone's sort of at even footing every Monday morning at 12.01am. So if you're used to refreshing a leaderboard at that time, we'll also do that. And you know you get seven days to kind of see if you can bump yourself up there top 10, top 20. It ultimately doesn't matter For people that help form communities all around points. It's not about the points. You know you can make it about the points. But you do get bonus points on Moon Days. You do get around points. It's not about the points.
Robin:You know you can make it about the points.
Job:You do get bonus points. Oh yeah, on moon days, that's right.
MJ:So on the moon. I love that you guys incorporated that. It makes so much sense.
Job:Yeah, that was, uh, just one of those things where we thought like, okay, we have this daily voyage so you can come in. And if you're coming from supernatural, the closest we have to daily voyage, so you can come in. And if you're coming from Supernatural, the closest we have to the daily workout is the daily voyage. So, like we said, we don't want to replace Supernatural or anything you've been doing for years. We just want to offer a new alternative or a new addition to your routine. So our daily voyages are average 10 minutes long.
Job:You come into Starwave every day and we'll give you a new assortment of three different levels, three different songs to play that are always going to be different and challenge you in different ways, but you get that goal. It's like, okay, did I star wave today? Come in 10 minutes. You do your 10 minutes, you get your star, you collect your stars and every star goes on your calendar. You check off your box for monday, for tuesday, for wednesday, but you see, on thursday, thursday is a full moon and on full moons, or new moons, uh, all the points, or quarter moons, uh, we will give you bonus points for doing your voyage. So if you, you know, are looking for that reason to get back in the routine, or you haven't, you know, been active in a while. You go to the, the movies, you see, you know Beetlejuice, beetlejuice, and then you come out of the parking lot and you see a full moon. All right, I should start with today.
Job:That was kind of like how can we get a free billboard in the sky for everyone on earth? Got it. So that was that reminder that you know. Dancing effectively under the moonlight has also been this primal thing humans have done for aeons, and we wanted to tie that in and honor the moon and honor the celestial bodies above us and allow us to take our own bodies into virtual space and dance it out.
MJ:Always dance it out. I just think it's such a motivating first of all. You've got all the important parts to help people create a healthy routine. You've got the check marks. You've got the stars you can come earn every day. If you get in, you get extra points. You have all the motivating factors to help people maintain that routine that they so desperately need.
Robin:We all need to maintain that routine.
MJ:You know and and moving, and then you have the community that you can tap into if you need a little extra competition or just want to talk to someone. You know that is such a huge part of what makes people stay engaged in their own health.
Job:It really is all about community, and that was our first lesson was building that, and that's what led to all of this for us. Building that and that's what led to all of this for us. Um, but yeah, if you, you know, I don't think any anyone that watches your podcast is any stranger to facebook. So, uh, we have our uh, growing official star wave community. Um, you can tap right directly into the developers hi there on the page pretty much at any hour. Um, we're always there, we're always engaged. We're also in discord as well, if you're more of a discord person, um, and you know that this is how we grow. It starts small. We're still a small, independent operation.
Job:Um, and anything that we do or any changes we make or as we evolve, it's all going to be steered by our users and our community. So, engaging with you and everyone else like it's that's what we're here for is like we, this isn't a game that's launched, it's sort of a new thing that's going to grow, and growing it with the community is the idea, which is effectively why and I will also say you were a part of the beta this summer, but the community that we utilized as the beta group was actually the Millionaire Club. So I knew that someday I might need a pool of experts on another VR experience. So if anyone had gotten to a million in Supernatural, there's a Facebook group for that. Marla is a pool of experts on another vr experience. So if anyone had gotten to a million in supernatural, there's a facebook group for that. Marla is a part of it I am and uh, we kind of we.
Job:We turned to them. It was a group that I had started years ago and um was always waiting for experts to come in and help us make the best new experience possible. Someday that could be a part of a routine. And, yeah, we, it's been. It's. You're in the special Thanks for the credits as well.
MJ:I am, I think that's the coolest thing ever. And in fact, I tell people about it. I'm like, hey, I'm in the credits for this game that I helped beta, like I had. I had to tell Chris about it and he was like what? He's not in VR, he's not in that part of my world. He loves me, he loves that I do that, he supports me all the way, but that is just not his thing. And when I came running out with the screenshot that I took and he was like that's your name, I said I know, I've been here since the beginning. I get to help build this. This is so cool, like coming in at the ground and the start was always something I wish I had been able to do for Supernatural.
MJ:And when I got this opportunity with you guys. I was like I'm in, I'm in, sign me up. What do I got to?
Job:do? When do I got to be?
MJ:there.
Job:Thank you. It was, um, yeah, it's. It's always been community vetted and tested and, and starting with the community that could tell us what was going to work and what wasn't, was you know, we could not have done this without hundreds of people that have helped make this, either full time or have volunteered for a beta. It's just, it's been something that everyone has been able to contribute to. We've heard a lot of voices and we're going to keep listening.
MJ:Yeah you guys still listen. You still are like you said in the Facebook community.
Robin:Yep.
MJ:So people who join now, who join months from now, they'll still we'll still be building this experience and the community. And come, come hang out with us in space, guys. Seriously, it's so fun, it's so fun. Thank you.
Robin:I've been in my fair share of beta testing opportunities and I don't know about you guys, but I very rarely feel listened to and it is we had to like with the beta group.
Robin:We had to be like, no, we're we're listening. Be like, no, we're listening, we're, we're doing these, we're implementing these changes. And, like you guys got to experience that with the updates that we would push out and like, oh yeah, well, we were being listened to. Like, yeah, that's. That's the whole point of the community and being community tested is that we are listening to all of your feedback and suggestions and working on implementing them the best we can.
MJ:It broke my brain initially to figure out that I had to break. I had to cut the strings, cut the strings of the way I was expected to move. And when I had that epiphany, at least for two years, I've added little things into my own style in Supernatural you know I move forward, backward, I add things.
MJ:But when I realized I could add anything I could dream up in Starwave, you guys sold me. I was like okay, I'm here, I'm a lifer, I'm here now. It was just so cool to realize that you guys are just guiding us, but we still get to do and move however we feel.
Job:Perfection, that's awesome to hear. Thank you.
MJ:I was thinking about the weekly leaderboard situation, and one of the things you have always really been good at, joe, is getting people motivated to get their butts in the headset. Always, you egg people on left and right. And you're still doing that in the Starwave community. I love to see it.
Job:I thank you. Yeah, that was.
Robin:Sarah and the what was it?
Job:Runaway, skyrunner, skyrunner, yeah, yeah. So well, we have different. We have like a leaderboard, scores per level, so you know if you want to keep trying at a certain level it's going to feel different every time, but you can amp your scores up to really minute numbers where it's really hard to have ties. So we have levels where people have still not maxed out what's even technically possible, and that's kind of what we want.
Robin:What do you call that? You coined a new phrase or a new term for that.
Job:Micropotential.
Robin:Oh, with different moves.
Job:Yeah, so every interactable Stardust comet, stardust and comets Comets, in particular while you're drumming, have a lot of micro potential because there's no max to the amount of time you can drum and get 20 points per hit, right. So it's the only maximum is the time and your human capability. So there's these little micro potentials that you can push scores up higher or lower, and you know, whether it's on Starwave or Supernatural in particular, that was kind of my shtick. When it first launched was like, well, I've been here for a couple months before it started. People see me with like 60,000, 70,000 points and I kind of know I have nothing else to do, so I'm going to be here in my living room doing this.
Robin:Following everyone that joins, following everyone that joins, and then it's me following back and unfollowing immediately because you have 40,000 points and it's Wednesday.
Job:There's a fine line between motivating and demotivating. But ultimately, you know, the idea was to kind of be like the rabbit on the rails, if it were like a dog track and like see someone else a little bit ahead of you all the time, like I gotta get him, I gotta get him, like try, I want you to like go for it, and it's humanly possible to be doing this. Um, but uh, yeah, I think with supernatural I've been able to. Obviously, the last two years I've been doing a lot less of that and working on something else. Um, but uh, getting to do that now in Starwave and now seeing other people being the rabbits in the rails, it's just like I feel like I get to permanently be that. Robert Redford, jeremiah Johnson gif just going.
MJ:Yeah.
Job:I'm just like I'm proud and I'm like, yeah, keep going, Keep going.
MJ:I'm proud and I'm like, yeah, keep going Like, keep going.
MJ:I love that, the spirit. You continued, that same spirit that I love and admire when I first came around you in the community and saw um, you encourage so many other people to do the things they don't necessarily think is possible, but you're doing it. So it's kind of like, well, dude, that's over there's doing, maybe I can do it. What if? What if I just keep trying and keep trying and keep trying and um, and then crazy things happen, like a hundred K in a week. Um, it, it's possible.
Job:It happens. That was a wild, wild week.
Robin:She was on the headset with me, I think, probably for 85 000 of those points yeah, yeah yeah yeah, that was my birthday week, december, yep, and then I got you back in the headset afterward oh yeah like, yeah, remember you were uh after that week, know, you took a couple days oh.
Job:I needed it.
Robin:But I think we went into. That was, I think, that, first time that we did something other than Supernatural and we checked out Racket NX and we checked out, oh yeah.
Job:It was that week. Yep, it was that week.
MJ:Your first unofficial supernatural date, Honestly.
Robin:I was over at my parents' house and I was like oh, I got to go, it's almost seven, I've got a date with Job, and I was saying it like all jokingly and then I was like, wait a minute, it's a date. No, it's not a date, we're just hanging out, we're just going to play some games. But it was the first time that we were embodied together in an experience, because until that point.
Robin:It was just supernatural in you know, an audio in your ears, yeah. And so it was the first time that we stood next to each other in racket and x and I looked at him and I'm like, oh, we're like the same height, like it was, but we you had no idea otherwise until I jumped into these more embodied experiences yeah, yeah, that that's something I think, uh, supernatural users are really fortunate to have now that, yes, you're just getting into this now with supernatural together.
Job:You got to remember there have been people here waiting four years for that just to even like stand next to each other. So you're, you're kind of suddenly thrust into the world where you can see someone else's embodied form and get their vibe, and that's something that didn't exist in every program, you know, four years ago. And so for us, yeah, you know, finding other experiences and then suddenly realizing, especially during the pandemic, like, like I said, couldn't even go out and get coffee with people, like it was such a drought of human connection.
Robin:But you can go on an Easter egg hunt for golf balls in Walkabout.
Job:You can, you can do that.
MJ:That's the best part of Walkabout Sorry.
Job:You can play, yes.
Robin:Agreed.
Job:You can play ping pong and 11 table tennis and you can even walk into the table and give each other a hug. You're not confined by the table. So we discovered that at one point. There's the thing that I think is I will. My prediction, speaking from some level of experience for the supernatural community is with supernatural together, like I know, we're not the only two people who've maybe met as supernatural part of the circumstance of them coming together, them coming together, um. But now that people are getting together online to work out together and be their best selves together, um, y'all are going to have even more supernatural weddings and babies and all that kind of people will meet yeah it is.
Job:It is. It is a matter of human connection, where it's the thing that's really hard about real world dating and connection and meeting new people, or, like you know it's. We have so many, um subconscious reservations about ourselves and what we look like and what other people might look like, or judgments that we might have. So when you distill a human being into just a raw essence or an avatar or a voice, a modulating voice or everyone becomes the same, it really takes our guards down and our defenses down, but also our judgment into this. It puts you in a different mindset where you're really just able to connect with what is on the end, yeah, you're open.
Job:So whatever is on the inside of us here as solid meat, you know mechanisms meat sex you have all of us have this inner guiding light, effectively this meat pilot inside that's pushing all of these molecules around in physical space. But when you transpose that your consciousness into a space where you're represented without physicality and you're just kind of an abstraction of your human form but you're really a distillation into your purest form of you, you can connect with people in a way that's fair. It can feel very much higher than what you can do back on earth as walking meat bags, because you really get to know the person on the inside.
MJ:I agree with that. And then if you combine that with working out and your heart rates up and you're enjoying this incredible movement and music and you piece all that together and all the endorphins, it's just. I've met some of the greatest friends of my entire life. Since I started working out in Supernatural. I have gone, I have visited them, I have met them in person, I speak to these people. They are a huge part of my life In VR, all because of VR, all because I got into a headset, fell in love with the movement and then found the community and it was like man, where have your people been my whole life? Finally, people, my people, hi.
Job:Yeah, your vibe attracts your tribe. It's what we always say. Very true, especially in VR. Like there's no better embodiment of that concept than than that. I agree VR.
MJ:So the joy it brings um, and then the ability to share that joy with others is really great.
Job:There is. And then I think you know you always hear about people meeting something. You know you met your partner at the gym and I think it sometimes comes with this connotation of like, oh, it's like people are. People are at the gym and they're pumping iron and it's all sexy and like, oh yeah, the gym.
Job:But I, I think in through the experience, is supernatural and the way these communities are formed and why people meet not just partners but best friends is, um, because you're meeting. I mean, community comes from the concept of marrying, two words being common unity. So the common unity between people in an experience like this is the desire and the willingness, whether it's at the gym or in Supernatural, the willingness to to try to better yourself and and try to be your best self and trying. And you know it's hard to do that without support. It's hard to do that alone. And you know this recipe of finding your tribe and finding people that all are united by that idea, that common unity of self-improvement and experiencing joy. It is a recipe for the best friends and the best human connection you could possibly make in your life.
MJ:I agree it's. It's hard to explain to people who haven't been in VR or who don't join these communities on Facebook or discord of you. Know you, once you buy in and actually connect and open yourself to the possibility of making real life friends, making real life connections that are meaningful and impactful, um you, you just don't really understand it and it sounds like we're just a cult. It's.
Job:I mean I won't go there. Partially, true, but a good one. There's good cults. Supernatural's a good cult. It's done a lot of good for people. Our cult is still very small, it's basically, but it's, you know, the VR friends thing is true, like we've also got our people that we work out with or people that we've known and through VR and I've, you know, have met in person and it's and it's like you've known them your whole life because you've spent so much time in these embodied spaces and um, and then also people who still in person.
MJ:I mean, we still haven't met Kathy is really the only one we've met in person from our group and we've got, you know, a half dozen that we message every day.
Job:But yeah, like family to us and it's like we actually have never physically been in the same place or room but that we'll text each other when we're flying across their state and be like I'm flying right about your house right now yeah, and it's it. It is a kind of bond that has I am. I've never experienced anything like it where it's just it feels stronger than, or as strong or stronger than, a lot of physical human connections or people that we've known in meat space, in the IRL.
MJ:This is very true.
MJ:It's very true. And can you? I always like to think to the future. I'm a future thinker. I'm like thinking about the past and thinking about the future. It's hard for me to stay to the future. I'm a future thinker. I'm like thinking about the past and thinking about the future. It's hard for me to stay in the now. It's something I work very hard to try and stay in the now. So I always wonder, since you do have a lot of experience in the VR space, what do you think five years from now will be like? Right?
MJ:I mean, there's so much new technology out and things I don't even know about and I go searching for it. So the impact VR in this space has had on the world. I can't even imagine where we'll be in five years with the way technology moves so quickly in five years, with the way technology moves so quickly.
Robin:Robbie, my hope is that it stays a distinct thing. So when we went to MetaConnect a few weeks ago, they showcased Orion, which are the smart glasses that have interface, that can come up of like messages and like avatars of people, but they're like glasses that you can see through.
MJ:Yeah.
Robin:And I feel like that just adds to the distraction of how society is now already and isn't necessarily a step forward. Um, my hope for vr is that it's it stays a distinct avenue of a virtual experience that can be enhanced with connection, so like bringing in more realistic avatars of your friends and people that you're meeting, but also having that fun ability to be a chili pepper, to be like a claymation character, like I see advancements in that way, I I hope to see advancements in headsets and not having to get additional accessories to be able to have it properly and not be top heavy or whatever, or front heavy. I have the Apple Vision Pro and I really love spatial computing. It's phenomenal. I like that. It's a separate thing. I put my headset on and people know that I'm working, or people know that I'm working out or hanging out with people, versus wearing glasses and being like are you recording? Are?
MJ:you here, are you doing that?
Robin:Yeah.
MJ:I get that Separates the connection, the real world connection that you will have.
Job:Yeah, yeah, I, I, I think that a lot in in line with that. We were just watching, for whatever reason, the 2002 live-action version of Scooby-Doo was on TV, less Okay, and we were like this is, yeah, interesting. So this is all very oh, I know where you're going. Yeah, we're like what is the deal with this? This is all very early 2000s, like what is it about what they're wearing? Or what is it about what these people are doing on this airplane? And I realized, as as scooby and shaggy are boarding the airplane and everyone's like talking to each other oh right, this was just before. Everyone had one of these with them all the time and everyone was engaging in human connection in a way that did not exist at that moment in time was just before. Like, all right, everyone's got infinite knowledge of the universe devices in their pocket at all times.
Job:So that that thing that's so that we kind of has changed, for us as a culture globally, of human connection, that we kind of lost through the droning of into this all the time, is a real thing. And with VR, what the story that we're telling and what we've experienced is your phone can be this thing that is often. It can often pull you away from other people and human connection, but VR has this incredible power to connect you even more deeply and closely with one another than any other piece of technology ever, as well as help provide you the opportunity to move freely and move in a flow state and help your mind, your body, your soul. Um, my hope for the next five years is really just, um, a continued focus on um, uh, hardware that supports software and experiences that continue to enhance human connection and humanity and heal versus distraction machines. You know like there's the rich, you know elevating human connective power of this immersive technology, but then there's that dark vision where it's like, yeah, vr is like clockwork orange and it's like peeling your eyes open and it's just feeding you content, content, content, content, content. Like not that Less. You know, less attention span, deficit, theater, tiktok in VR, more slow down and sit by a campfire.
Job:Actually, I think that was where we first danced together was in big screen. I think that was where we first danced together was in big screen. We were discovering some of their breakout rooms and we went to a breakout room that had a campfire and it was playing music and then it cut to a track from supernatural that we we had been dancing to. So that was the first time we actually danced together was around a campfire, outside of supernatural it was. It was a virtual room and big screen with a campfire and a screen playing pop music or electronic music and wouldn't have been pop music, because she would not have danced with you, correct?
Job:that is also true. It was electron, I think. It was alesso, maybe yeah it was probably. That is big and supernatural there just really, really, you know, um continued use of its power for good. Yeah, that's, that was my hope, that's what we're here to do, so, um, what do we have to look forward to from star waves in the future?
MJ:You guys keep wanting to connect people. Keep giving us an experience.
Robin:What else?
MJ:Tell us Uh well, I giving us an experience. What?
Job:else, tell us something. Well, I'll take this one.
Robin:I don't know what we can.
Job:I would just spill all the beans if I had my way. Yeah, all of a sudden my mic's not working.
Job:We've lost a job, oh no, first and foremost new levels. Oh no, last Job, robin. First and foremost new levels. So you know we've been cracking away at those. Those are right around the corner. So this galaxy is full of you know, different songs and levels to play through. We're going to be expanding with more galaxies and a bigger universe. So that's you know, we're not subscription-based or you don't need to be online. Once you download these things. You can even go offline and play and take it on vacation. So that's one upside, especially if you're traveling.
Job:But ultimately, what would come next from us would be more of those connective tools where now we see the community. Now we want to tap into that and see what's going on with marla or going on with robin, and have more ways to connect through and bind that to the community. Everything is so right now. You know, october 2024. It's so early and we're if you remember supernatural, if you, if you've been around long enough to remember supernatural day Day 1, day 1 looked very different from Day 7. And Day 7 looked very different from 30. And 30 looked very different from a year, and now it's three years in. It's constantly evolving, so we'll also be constantly evolving as well. So, more connective tissue to community, more tools to experience the content the way that you want to experience it.
Job:And everyone is probably wondering about multiplayer. Still, I will tell you that you know, supernatural is a multi, multi, multi, multi-million dollar funded operation and it took them four years to get it right. Um, we are not a multi-million uh, more like a non-million funded operation and we're kind of pacing ourselves. But you know, eventually there will be more ways to play more closely together. But we want to get that right too. So we encourage you all to join our community and let us know how you'd like to experience that someday, because we're thinking about all of it. So what you can expect next from Starwave is more to play through a growing community and you join it and you tell us what you want to see and let's work on it together.
MJ:Oh, I love that you said that, because you guys are still you guys are still little baby stars.
Job:Just this week.
MJ:Yes, a couple of weeks. And we, anyone listening to this, all of us we have such a great opportunity to come in and help shape this beautiful community and help grow and evolve with you guys. And that opportunity don't waste that opportunity. Y'all come on. Come check out star wave. I can tell you, even though I know multiplayers a long way away, you can use messenger calls.
MJ:You can use the built-in Oculus call. I have done that with friends. You can adjust the eternal volumes. Put the call volume up louder. You can count in all the old school supernatural peeps. We know what we're talking about Exactly, or unless you're me and you're going to troll everyone and say three, two, one resume. Because the screen says resume. So I like to mess with everyone. And then everyone's like did you hit start? What's going on? And then I just laugh hysterically. But you know you can do something like that with with Starwave too.
MJ:There's just, the future looks so bright for you guys and I'm so excited that you have found this passion, because I can I can tell that it's a passion for you guys, not just the movement and the app and the experience, but the community and the connection with everyone in the community. So I'm very excited about that.
Job:Thank you, and I would be remiss not to say people watching this. It's not just Robin and I like. There are other teams working together on this. Shout out to our friends at Tigertron and SkyMap. There are engineering teams on one side of the country and people all over the country now working to get this thing together. People out in New Zealand. It's not just two people, but it is still a small group and a big collaboration and I'm just happy to be a part of it and leading it somewhere and we're following the community. So I love that. That's the plan.
MJ:So every time I've had a community member on the show, I've asked them to leave me a question for the next person people who come on the show.
MJ:I call it a legacy question and Miranda was on the episode last community member and she sent me a question. Now she says she had this based only on supernatural and I'm changing it a little bit. No-transcript. First experience VR. Yes, she said supernatural and I'm going to change it to VR because I think it's opens up. I mean, wow, you just saw, you just got in VR and how, look how your life has changed because of it. You know it's a big, big question, I know.
Robin:Both of your faces are like oh gosh. First of all, I'm trying to think back to that first day and I'm struggling but I can think back to my early days in supernatural, but either way, I have an answer for both instances which is awesome.
Robin:I wouldn't say a thing because I love how everything has evolved and moved forward and everything happened Like I couldn't imagine a better alternative to how things have panned out. Were there difficulties? Absolutely. Were there stresses? Absolutely. But to get to where we are now, I don't want to say anything to spoil or sway or change any direction of how that could have gone.
Job:I'm inclined to agree, and that just kind of comes from the idea of allowing things going with the flow and allowing things to go without expectation. 2016 or day one in 3d uh lightsaber battles at Disneyland in the nineties, which actually think might have been my first fully embodied VR experience back in the nineties in Orlando Um, you know, the passion for what, the potential of what this has always been, has always been with me. But if I had said I was like oh, yeah, and when it comes to summer, like COVID is going to happen and do this and do this, and like here's the almanac, invest here, you're going to be a billionaire Like none of that.
Job:Like it would have. It would have just been, at any point in time, whether where there were those big firsts. If I had to say something, I would just remind myself. I would just say keep going, cause that's that's what I seem to always, the voice I need to tell myself. And like it's, it's always moving. I keep going, like this is where your passion is. And if I could tell my past self, um that it I wouldn't want to say what it was going to lead to. I would just say keep going keep going, don't give up.
MJ:I like that. I did, I would.
Robin:I would look back at that, robin, and just like smile and be like you are. Yeah, it's going to be good. I love that. Oh man, that's a good response.
MJ:Both of those are great responses. I love that. Um, both of those are great responses. I love that. I would want to one give my past self a big hug, and I think I would steal both y'all's responses.
MJ:One not tell her anything other than keep going, it all works out. Go with the flow, keep going, that's what I would say. So I'm stealing y'all's y'all's advice. So we usually do an emoji for hugs when you're talking to someone they've had a bad day and you're like, oh, I want to emoji react. I don't want to hurt that messenger. You know Cause. Why do you want to hurt someone's bad day? You want to give them a hug. Right? If you could pick any animal emoji, what would your animal? It has to be an animal.
Robin:You're like no, for you. For you it has to be the animal I'm picturing, the little paw print. You know the two little black paw prints.
MJ:That works, that works, I love that.
Job:That is, from what I understand, possibly your next tattoo.
Robin:It is.
Job:I think that happened once during the call. But she is also literally alive because of Abby, our dog, who's a diabetic alert dog. So you know anytime Robin's high or low.
MJ:Oh, look at Abby Sweet puppers. She saves your life every day, all day, doesn't she? Yep?
Job:And night. So I'm certainly not going to smell her blood in the middle of night and be like you're going to die if you don't do this right now. Come on, joe, but the dog can, yeah, yeah, and just taps her with her paw on her leg, so that paw print is like the hug of life for her.
Robin:Yeah, Well, yeah, she can smell when my blood sugar is low or high, and with type 1 diabetes, that is tricky to manage at times, and so it is like she's giving me a little hug when she does that and it's very reassuring, like just when I am super, super low and she's told me and I'm like trying to bring it up and just kind of sitting there, like just having her lean against me and like having her there as that, that support is also just nothing like it.
MJ:So the paw prints make a perfect scent for you and it's very sentimental and and this is kind of the core of this question it's an opportunity to get to know you guys. How would you show love? How would you and yes, I say animal. That's how it starts. One day I'll have to branch out to all the other emojis, but now it's just animals, Um, and it makes total sense.
MJ:And now, if I get the little paw print emoji reaction from you, I know, you're sending me a hug and um, and then I'll think of of your, of your puppers, abby, and how she saves your life. It's a whole, it's a whole circle. You know it's. It's a great opportunity. Now I see you over there looking at those emojis.
Job:Well, I would say that maybe, maybe mine is is actually the. The black lab that's wearing the red working dog alert vest is also, it's like, literally an icon of abby. So if I can't have the paw print, I'll take the abby emoji and uh, and double down on some puppy love, because it's it is. There's nothing like having a dog, especially one that's, you know, literally keeping you, know, you alive, or the love of your life alive, and there's just so much love in what dogs have to offer.
Job:We don't deserve them. We really don't Agreed. They're the best so and they give the best hugs.
MJ:They really do. So I love, I love, I love all animals but dogs, um, ever since I was little little, we've always had a dog. Yeah, I grew up with lots of dogs. We rescued dogs, they've. I can't think of a day in my whole life that I've not been around a dog. Um, so when you say we don't deserve them, you are absolutely right. They're the best. So when you say we don't deserve them.
Job:you are absolutely right. They're the best, they are love.
MJ:They're the best Unconditional love at that. Wow, amazing.
Job:As long as they're snacks.
MJ:Oh yeah, me too. You know you've got snacks, I'll come over and coffee. I need coffee. That would probably get me there faster than snacks. But yes, I relate Well, you guys. I really appreciate you being on the show today talking to us about Supernatural. Usually, I end the show with a workout suggestion from Supernatural. However, I really want everyone to go play Starwave and check it out. Do you have a certain galaxy or song that you would recommend? Maybe it might take them a little bit to get there if they're new to Starwave. What's one you've made and created that you are very proud of?
Robin:or relate to a lot.
MJ:I'm sure lots of them, but Robin. I'll let you go first.
Robin:Oh, you got one. I'm still thinking.
Job:So I'll go first. I would say so if you're new and you get it in your daily voyage, good luck. It's a little challenging, but if you just go to the I was going to, good luck. It's a little challenging, um, but if you just go to the I was gonna. If you go to your journey mode and scroll to the fifth galaxy, you'll find it as um, one of the first songs which you can jump to. You don't have to play through the whole thing to go to galaxy five so you can start with galaxy six. Find it and look for a song uh love all I design called set me free, um, which is one of those two songs that, along with feel so alive were, was kind of like the mantra and the anthem for how this experience was going to be different from beat, saber, up and down, supernatural, corner, corner and everything telling us to do something a certain way.
Job:That has been amazing for us and we still love to do, to get your mindset into that new way of thinking of full freeform movement and freedom. And let's let go of those. Effectively, when we have choreographers Right, they kind of what their job is is to be the marionette for for you, the puppet. So they're pulling the strings to get you to pull your arm that way and you to move this way. And set me free has always been the anthem of cutting those puppet strings. And, um, once you kind of adopt that mindset of I can knock this out of the park in any direction and I move how I want to move. Set Me Free has been really designed for that, as that like this, is what this is all about. So check out Set Me Free.
MJ:Great suggestion. What about you robin?
Robin:I know we just made a video on it, but archetype is really just it's such a good full body, I mean they all are, but like it kind of teaches you that idea that you can move it's it's. It gives you that audio reminder of getting down and moving around, and so sometimes just having that is like, oh, I can wait what so? Archetype would be my suggestion, with shine as a close second.
Robin:Um okay, well, if you guys are watching this on, oh yeah, go ahead oh sorry, just I know go ahead um, which is in the same galaxy as shine okay it's the last song.
MJ:Uh, lighten you, oh yeah okay all right well yeah, I'll make sure I pop those up on the screen if you're watching on youtube so that you know what you're looking for and the names of it and everything. And if you are in my private Facebook group for the podcast, I will also make a post in there with the graphic and include the link to the Star Wave community so everyone can go join, hang out, meet some new people. You'll probably see some old friends and people you recognize in that community already, but I appreciate you both coming on. Thanks to everyone listening. It's always Thanks for having us yes.
MJ:Anytime. I can't wait, honestly, because I think about the future. I can't wait to have you guys back on again, you know, a year from now, just to talk about what's going on in Starwave and um, you know, I'm glad you guys came on and that the community gets to hear from you and, uh, it's always a good day when we can talk about joy and movement. I'm not even going to say just supernatural today, I'm going to say just joy and movement, because that's what we're all here doing together.
Job:Today I'm going to say just joy movement, because that's what we're all here doing together. Pure joy is all we're trying to make here and we're just grateful to be invited. Thank you for having us and grateful for anyone willing to give pure joy a try. So we're serving it.
MJ:That's right. You guys are serving it All right, y'all. Thanks for coming on, thank you, and thank you Bye, bye. Thanks for joining us on today's episode of For the Love of the Map. As always, you can join the discussion in the private Facebook group and follow along with show updates on Instagram and TikTok. Links can be found in the description below. If you find value in the show, please share it with your friends. Your comments, likes and reviews are invaluable and I cannot thank you guys enough. See you next time.